PHIL 103 G, Monday, 8-28-17

Plato's Euthyphro.

audio/mpeg PHIL_103_G_Mon_8_28_17.mp3 — 65080 KB


Transcript

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boss v-103 ji Monday August 28th 2017
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and I said that so that for the people
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who are gonna upload this and for any of
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you who are looking for it so you'll
00:24
never know what you've gotten to this is
00:29
a podcast recorder and you can get
00:33
access to it through the York web page
00:35
on your computer you don't need anything
00:37
else go to the web page then to current
00:42
students I think I've got that written
00:44
here podcast and then you pick the
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course the year semester the day the
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course and then the particular date this
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semester I'm teaching three sections of
00:57
this course C E and G and because things
01:02
happen sometimes not very often but
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already at some events today it could
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happen that your class doesn't get
01:15
recorded so you can go to one of these
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other classes not that all three will be
01:23
the same but they'll be on the same
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topic for topics and you can get
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something useful so first of all let me
01:32
make clear that you will never be
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required that's a little too strong you
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will in general not be required to
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listen to podcast recordings but they're
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there for your use for one thing it
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means that you don't have to take so
01:56
many notes because if you want to
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remember what I said you can always go
02:00
to the recording and it's easy enough
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together I just want but I made nervous
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because either because of the batteries
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of the recorder but probably the
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recorder for both of my first two
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classes today C and E
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I turned it on put it in my pocket but
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when I took it out it wasn't done so
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almost nothing was recording for those
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classes now I've got a new recorder it
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should be okay
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that means it's available to you but
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also to those other sections since I'm
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going to cover the same topics now I
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said that in general you're not required
02:48
to listen to the podcast recordings but
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there are exceptions and I'm gonna
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mention two of those right now one well
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in general the exception is if you're
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not here and there are different kinds
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of reasons why you might not be here
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I'll start with one distinction about
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why you might not be here you might not
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be here because of you something in your
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life I'll come back to that in a moment
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but you might not be here because of me
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and I don't mean because you said oh my
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gosh I can't listen to him today what I
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mean is I might cancel class in which
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case I may substitute a podcast
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recording now neither of us should do
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that without a good reason my reason for
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cancelling Wednesday's class is that my
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wife is having surgery
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and I'm gonna be there with her it's an
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ambulatory surgery then take her home
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afterwards
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so wasn't planned when I made the
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syllabus yeah so so we will not be done
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Wednesday instead what I'm gonna do
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after this class is go to my office and
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talk for 20 minutes at most a half an
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hour and what I'm going to talk about is
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the use of fro that was that like some
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like a horn blowing in applause I took
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that number away so you won't think that
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that has anything to do with this title
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we will talk about the use of row even
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though I don't assume anybody's read it
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yet we'll talk about it
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you know the second of our two hours
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today and then you'll have this podcast
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recording to listen to and to write
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about and that's how you will make up
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for now you're not making up for your
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absence because it's your fault there's
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no fault involved but it's my I'm the
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cause not you but this is the way we'll
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make up for the loss of instruction the
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loss of time together to work on this
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material what I'm gonna do basically is
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I have notes on the Euthyphro which are
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an outline and I'm going to I just added
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a couple days ago in anticipation of
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this I added to that page a few
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questions about the outline but as I
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read the outline I mean I could swear to
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you that I'm not going to add a word to
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what I wrote there
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but if the if swearing and committing
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yourself has any penalty if you deviate
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from it then I wouldn't do that because
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I know me too well there's no way I'm
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gonna go to my office even though I'm
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I'll be tired there's no way I'm gonna
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go to my office and read what I've
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written there without making comments
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probably if it were really important if
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somebody's life depended on it or
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something like that I could do it like
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recently my daughter told me that I
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can't keep secrets and I told her so I
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can keep a secret
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even if usually I don't and I could if I
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had to read verbatim what's written in
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front of me and not say a word I'm
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capable of that I'm not saying it's a
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great accomplishment I'm just saying I
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could do it but it's not my preference
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when I say something or hear something I
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like to think about it and comment on it
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I usually have something to say how
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interesting it is but what I anticipate
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is that I'll sit down and read this
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stuff and make a few comments I'll try
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to keep it limited I can almost I'm
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almost certain it won't be more than a
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half an hour altogether so what we'll go
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over the syllabus together well but what
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you you there'll be no class on
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Wednesday and there's no class on Monday
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why not
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Labor Day right so the next time we meet
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will be September 6th oh my gosh you
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better start doing your Christmas
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shopping it was July wasn't it yeah so
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next time we meet will be Wednesday
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September 6
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and for that class here's what you have
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to do one read the use of fro which as I
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indicate here is about twenty pages so
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we're not talking about a huge amount of
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reading in the syllabus in the schedule
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you're told to write log one and there's
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a topic given we'll come back to that in
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a minute we'll get these things
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clarified gradually but I just want to
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give you the picture the the logs there
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are twelve or thirteen logs I can't
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remember you'll see in a minute when I
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give you the syllabus seven sentences so
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right we're not talking about a lot of
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writing seven sentences is a minimum but
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I don't want you to go much above it and
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you'll listen to the podcast and write a
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log well when I have extra logs I say
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say ten sentences okay
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it's also about the use of row but it's
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more general than the then the topic
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that's in the syllabus so there could be
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a certain amount of redundancy here you
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may be in the two logs writing some of
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the same things that's all right but
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that's what that's a general picture of
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what to do between now and next and a
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week from Wednesday now a little bit of
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the mechanics of the logs before we get
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into content what it says in the
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syllabus let me pass this out is that
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you should print from your computer
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print the logs however although I don't
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state it there there is an alternative I
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prefer the printed easier to read
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I hope I've got enough of these but I
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will also accept them on 5x8 index cards
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I used to be able to say to you you can
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get 5x8 index cards in the bookstore but
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we don't have a bookstore anymore
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I think it's unfortunate it's not a
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college decision it's a CUNY decision
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but a 5x8 index card is you know like
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half the size of a sheet of paper it's a
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little bit less than that but about that
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size right it's important to me that
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they all be on the same size
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partly because I read them frequently in
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the subway and I would like to have a
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neat pile I don't like to be shuffling a
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bunch of different size cards anyway so
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those are the two ways either print it
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in the computer or find some 5x8 index
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cards and in that case you can write it
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the advantage of an index card of course
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is that you know you could be writing
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this at the last minute on your way into
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class or something like that or even
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after you sit down in class let me talk
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to you a little bit about that it may
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sound like I'm advising you to be a
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casual student not a very hardworking
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student and in a certain sense that's
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true yes I'm sorry but fortunately I
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have one to give you you pass that back
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you've got the wrong arms the purpose of
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the logs is for you to write down a few
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thoughts guided by what you read and by
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the topic that I give you
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in preparation for class discussion so
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it is part of your preparation you're
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beginning to deal with the text it is
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not meant to be a demonstration of your
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honor
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handing of the text well of course it's
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gonna demonstrate some understanding but
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it's it's it's your initial attempt it's
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like when you first when you try to do
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something you haven't done before like
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ride a bicycle or something like that
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right you you hope at the end of
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whatever amount of time you spend the
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first time that you get a little better
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the feel of what you're doing then when
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you started or to take another example
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if you're in training in track or some
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other sport when you first start working
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out you don't try to run this fast or as
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long as you could or need to you try to
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begin to get your muscles used to what
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it is that you're doing and next time
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maybe you'll do the same thing or a
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little bit more with a little rest in
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between right so you're building up
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strength and agility whatever is
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involved and the same thing is true here
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too
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and this is important for you to
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understand because among all the other
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things that interfere with your
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education your job your other
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responsibilities worries about the world
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around you or whatever all sorts of
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things interfere but one of the things
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that interferes with your education is
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your own attitudes towards it those
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attitudes are not necessarily bad
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attitudes but sometimes they don't
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they're not the most useful for you so
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what I have in mind are things like the
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fact that sometimes people are more
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confident than they should be and or
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more arrogant and resistant to learning
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than they should be but the opposite is
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also true
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that sometimes frequently people are too
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hard on themselves too demanding too
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rejecting of their own efforts which
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makes it very hard to do things you know
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if you're trying to do something new and
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you imagine somebody else criticizing
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every move you make that could be a very
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the discouraging presence you might say
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if you could say it is such a person
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depends on their authority over you
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right if it's a if it's a boss training
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you would do job you wouldn't want curse
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them out and tell him to go away because
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he's the one right but but if you could
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do what you wanted to that's that's
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exactly what you do we say look go away
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so that I can concentrate on this and
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try to do the job but when you're the
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person who's criticizing you
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you can't go away that's one of the
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problems for human existence
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we can't leave ourselves we have to
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learn to live with ourselves so if you
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are demanding when you write a log for
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me if you think that what you're
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supposed to do is demonstrate
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understanding of the material you just
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read if you think of that in kind of
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stringent terms you'll find it difficult
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to do you can imagine for example in
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some other subjects like physics or
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mathematics being given an assignment a
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chapter in a textbook or whatever and
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the instructor tells you to write on it
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before you've heard any talk about it in
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class at all you would consider that
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strange and that's what I'm doing
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actually I am gonna talk about the you
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throw some today but in general the
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model for this class will be that you
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read and write about material that you
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may never have heard of before let alone
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looked at and ever heard not one word of
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instruction about from me in fact the
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reason for that is that I want you to
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experience the text so that when you
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hear something for me about it you hear
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about something with which you have at
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least some degree of familiarity in
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other words it's not all coming from me
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you've had an experience maybe not a
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clear one
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but you've had some experience at least
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and when I talk about it you can relate
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it to that experience number one number
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two when you encounter these texts on
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your own you will find difficulties and
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so you you are like this is a very
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common even trite analogy when we talk
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about preparing a mind we often compare
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it to preparing a field now in an urban
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setting agricultural analogies are not
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always the most useful but you know in
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order to grow something you have to
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prepare the soil you you put the plow
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through the soil you turn it up you
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aerate it and so on so if you drop a
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seed in there it's got a chance
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that's what reading the material and
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writing the log are supposed to do
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prepare the soil your if you do those
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things you're prepared for class yeah
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yeah they're the questions are in the in
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the schedule I can show you the first
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question if you like but go ahead with
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yours first only if you think you're
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supposed to give the right answer that's
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what makes it challenging but but yes
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but on the topic so what happens to a
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lot of people is they they read the
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stuff and then tell me some thoughts
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about those pages but forget my topic
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okay so one of the things I have to
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teach people with the initial logs is
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you don't have to understand this stuff
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well of course you have to understand at
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least a little bit to write anything
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about it
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right so let me go do that point a bit
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sometimes people say to me I didn't
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understand it and I say well you didn't
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understand that at all no nothing
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okay so I love that I love that answer
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because it enables me then to ask what
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is it that you didn't understand they
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say well you know this book you assigned
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what book did I assign so what's the
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answer to that question what tell what's
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your name what's your last name
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Santana so I have to tell you this I
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know it's gonna come as a terrible shock
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I hope it won't upset too many of you
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but I ask you to call me professor
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Ruttenberg or dr. Ruttenberg and i'll
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call you miss Santana unless of course
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it isn't your name okay so so what's the
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book that I'm asking does anybody else
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know so she doesn't have to look it up
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what Euthyphro yeah but yeah
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this pronunciation is okay this actually
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isn't the way the Greeks pronounce it so
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right as long as we know who we're
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talking about okay the use of fro all
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right so so that so that's all that
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already shows some understanding doesn't
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it you I understood that book a little
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bit I know the title the name right it
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might not be much but it's something
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yeah you can email to me however if a
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lot of students email to me a lot I'm
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not sure how responds if I can be right
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so the initial communication with me
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probably should be you could write about
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your in the log you what I'm part of
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what I'm trying to teach you to do is to
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to try to understand something and to
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write that way rather than as students
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in a sense are encouraged to do to
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pretend to understand what you don't
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so if you say to me I didn't understand
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what Socrates meant or use of romant or
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whatever when he said blah blah blah and
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especially if you put it in your own
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words which shows you understand at
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least something about what he was trying
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to say right that's good that's not bad
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and I write comments on these logs not a
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lot but some and I also use them to
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teach me what's perplexing to you when I
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come back and talk to you in class all
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right now let's follow this a little bit
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further so I say what book didn't you
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understand then you say the use of fro
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so then I ask this hypothetical
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discussion there's me Santana was having
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trouble understanding things I say what
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is it you didn't understand in asking
21:53
those questions I'm not trying to pin
21:55
you down as we say or show you you're
21:58
wrong I'm trying to teach you if I do
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that I'm not perfect if I do something
22:03
like that
22:03
I shouldn't be it's not good teaching
22:05
and you can correct me right like if I
22:08
get annoyed with you and I express it
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you might ask me how is your annoyance
22:17
helpful for my learning and there may be
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an answer may be expressing my annoyance
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it could be helpful to your learning
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however that's the reason I should do it
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not simply because I'm annoyed you know
22:29
what I'm saying right like okay I
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digress for my directions but what I'm
22:36
trying to do is teach you the questions
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you might ask yourself in reading this
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so if you then so in writing a log you
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might say well I didn't understand what
22:45
Socrates men and then you say
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specifically what you didn't understand
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and while you're doing that I bet you
22:52
get an idea not of the answer but
22:57
something to say on the topic that you
22:59
don't understand
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and there's a frustrated student who'd
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like to ask me a question or say
23:03
something yes I don't think so what I
23:12
want you to do is you know read whatever
23:15
the assignment is for that day
23:17
and pay attention to the when you're
23:20
writing to the topic other than that I
23:24
can't think of any specific for me I'm
23:26
not sure what you mean oh oh well there
23:30
is did I talk about printing it out and
23:32
5x8 cards I talked about that already
23:34
right this by the way there's my third
23:35
class today please forgive me if I can't
23:37
remember with whether I said it to you
23:38
or somebody else or you don't have to
23:42
forgive me that's okay just anything
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more than that I mean it should have
23:48
your name on it it's helpful if it says
23:50
which class especially since I might
23:52
have materials from three different
23:53
classes right 103 G and your name and
23:57
log one you know the number other than
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that whatever way you are moved to talk
24:04
about it with an eye to the topic now
24:07
that doesn't mean you shouldn't ever on
24:09
the logs write to me about something off
24:11
the topic but but it won't count as one
24:15
of these seven right so that's why
24:18
sometimes if you're on the topic in the
24:21
right hand corner I'll put a check
24:23
please don't take the check to mean that
24:25
I think you understand the topic fully
24:27
right but you did write seven sentences
24:30
on the topic you did what you're
24:32
supposed to do you're prepared for
24:33
discussion of this if you did some of
24:36
that but not seven sentences all right
24:37
an incomplete I for you complete but
24:39
that doesn't mean you have to complete
24:40
it the only way you have to come you
24:42
should complete an incomplete is if you
24:45
understand oh I see why he thinks these
24:47
some of these sentences were not on the
24:49
topic so I didn't write enough on the
24:50
topic but even so I'm not asking you to
24:52
do any more if you really didn't write
24:55
on the topic or if I feel like all you
24:59
did was sort of copy back what was in
25:01
the text I'll tell you to redo that's
25:05
the only time you have to do anything
25:06
else
25:07
okay so any any other questions about
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the logs at this point now the logs are
25:18
supposed to be preparation for class
25:20
discussion and class discussion should
25:22
be preparation for writing an essay so
25:26
not not if not all the log topics will
25:29
relate to the essay topic the essay
25:32
topic I've made some changes in the last
25:36
couple years so I want to make sure that
25:38
what I'm telling you is right the first
25:42
log topic on page three so for September
25:46
6 says write log Wan I'll wait for you
25:51
to get there
25:51
what does Euthyphro mean when he says
25:54
that he knows what piety is and why can
25:57
he not give a definition Friday so it's
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really kind of two topics right now if
26:04
we look what you found it okay if we
26:09
look a little so notice there's by the
26:12
bottom of the page we're at log for the
26:16
next page page 4 for September 27th the
26:21
draft of essay 1 is due so that must
26:25
mean I've got essay 1 listed earlier
26:27
where is it there it is at September
26:30
11th essay 1 draft due September 27th so
26:35
in other words I'm merely announcing it
26:38
here at September 11th it's not due then
26:40
and what's the topic how can it be just
26:44
for Socrates the question is fellow
26:46
citizens about how they live even if
26:49
they were to pass a law forbidding him
26:50
to do so and then I put in parentheses
26:52
apology now the apology is the title of
26:54
the second dialogue you read not the
26:58
first which is the use of fro that we're
27:00
talking about now
27:01
and yet unjust for him to escape
27:04
punishment for doing so and then in
27:05
parentheses cried oh that's the name of
27:07
the third dialogue so we've got a series
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of short works the use of fro is about
27:15
20 pages the apology
27:20
is about 30 the credo is about 10 then
27:29
there's the Phaedo which I may not ask
27:35
you to read at all that I want you to
27:38
know if its existence the Phaedo is
27:40
about 80 pages and then I think I should
27:44
do some erasing here the Meno these are
27:56
all the works of Cueto that I've got
27:58
listed in fact this edition gives the
28:02
title 5 dialogues Euthyphro apology
28:05
cried o Meno feet o the me know how many
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pages this Tomino I don't know maybe 50
28:17
pages let me tell you quickly what what
28:24
they're about I'm trying to get at the
28:28
issue of the essay okay but in order to
28:31
make that intelligible it's helpful to
28:33
tell you what they're about there are a
28:39
number of things I have to remember to
28:40
do though did I did I get that past that
28:44
list around for email okay I want to
28:49
tell you about the clock this class is
28:51
scheduled from 2 to 350 that's a hundred
28:56
and ten minutes it's actually two hours
28:59
and the academic hours 50 minutes we're
29:01
supposed to meet
29:01
we're supposed to meet for a hundred
29:02
minutes it's scheduled for a hundred and
29:05
ten minutes with the idea that we'll
29:06
take a break in the middle we won't
29:09
we'll take that ten minutes at the end
29:11
in other words we'll finish at 3:40 and
29:13
then you'll have those 10 minutes to
29:15
spend how you choose not having to come
29:18
back here for this class
29:20
because I feel that a hundred minutes at
29:22
a stretch is not too much when it gets
29:25
much beyond that it gets to two hours
29:26
it's time for a break
29:29
100 minutes we should be okay alright so
29:32
we'll meet from 2 to 3 40 right that's
29:38
one point the other point is this email
29:44
then I'll get back to the dialogues your
29:50
college students and faculty are
29:52
supposed to use their your College email
29:54
they're not supposed to use it so that
29:57
it can have revenues or something like
29:59
that you know but because it's the
30:01
official channel of communication
30:03
between the University of the college
30:04
and us you may never have any
30:08
communications from them that you think
30:10
you absolutely have to read but they
30:11
want us to be aware so if you have as
30:16
you probably do another email that you
30:18
use most of the time please at least
30:20
check from time to time and also I want
30:25
you to use your York email for the
30:27
writing of essays you won't hand me
30:30
paper you'll send it as an email
30:33
attachment your essay okay please use
30:35
your New York mail address if you don't
30:43
have a York mail address if some
30:44
students don't with new students don't
30:46
have it yet please write in here the
30:50
your other address if your York mail
30:55
address is what one would expect from
30:59
the format so let me take as an example
31:02
is Edna Brown here okay Miss Brown so
31:07
what we would expect is Edna doc brown
31:12
at York Mail CUNY edu right that's the
31:16
formula now sometimes if your name is
31:18
common and there's more than one Edna
31:23
Brown in the university they'll tack on
31:27
to that I just learned from a student
31:30
today that what they they tack on a
31:32
number I thought it was the with
31:34
something else but the student said that
31:36
it's the its your emplid numbers I'm not
31:39
I'm not sure that's
31:40
but they'll tack on a number so it could
31:43
be edna dot brown one or two or
31:47
something like that that I need to know
31:52
that in other words if your email
31:55
address is Edna dot Brown at York mail
31:58
dot Q dot edu in other words if your
32:00
email addresses exactly what we would
32:01
expect from the from that format you
32:04
don't have to write anything in here in
32:08
this column to the right if it differs
32:10
from that at all
32:12
please write it in and if you don't have
32:15
a york mail address you have hotmail or
32:18
Gmail or would ever write that in okay
32:26
this way I'll be able to get in touch
32:28
with you and I already have
32:30
that's from CUNY first so I have your
32:31
emplid number so if I need to look at
32:35
your transcript or something like that
32:37
if I'm giving you the advisement or
32:39
whatever I've got that already so these
32:47
dialogues and how are they gonna relate
32:49
to the essay so first of all the point
32:52
is they're not all gonna be involved in
32:54
the essay why do I have all of them then
32:58
well in the Euthyphro we'll get back to
33:03
this point Socrates tells Euthyphro that
33:08
he needs his help because he thinks that
33:11
Euthyphro is an expert on the charge
33:16
against Socrates Socrates has been
33:21
charged with in PT and use of fro
33:24
Socrates has reason to believe is an
33:26
expert on piety and impiety therefore
33:29
Socrates wants instruction from
33:30
Euthyphro to help him with his defense
33:33
in his trial which is coming up in a
33:36
couple of weeks
33:38
that's the dramatic setting of the use
33:42
of Rome so it is before the trial the
33:45
apology
33:47
is part of the trial it's plato's
33:50
presentation of Socrates defense in the
33:54
trial so sometimes instead of saying the
33:56
apology modern additions we'll call it
34:00
the the trial of Socrates or the defence
34:04
of Socrates the reason they don't use
34:09
the word apology is because in English
34:11
and I don't think they should do that I
34:14
think they should let let you find out
34:15
what Plato means by that word but in
34:18
English when we apologize is because we
34:21
think we've done something wrong and
34:24
we're saying we're sorry
34:30
in Greek an apology is an argument the
34:36
word logos which you see in so many of
34:39
the subject matters that you study the
34:42
college like the logos about CK about
34:45
psyche psychology or about the body
34:49
physiology you know and so on it's on a
34:53
logos from which we also get the word
34:57
logic is an argument or a discourse and
35:04
an a discourse which is a Poe is in
35:10
favor of in support of something as
35:14
opposed to a discourse it might be
35:16
against it so Socrates gives a speech in
35:20
favor of that is in support of his own
35:24
behavior that so it's appropriate when
35:27
you charge with something to call such a
35:28
discourse a defense right he defends
35:31
himself doesn't apologize in our sense
35:34
of the word but he loses he's found
35:41
guilty
35:42
and the ancient Greek proceeding let me
35:47
make sure that this thing is working
35:48
them oh good
35:50
how nice the ancient Greek Athenian
35:57
procedure was for each side to offer a
36:02
penalty that would that procedure made
36:10
those found guilty usually try to offer
36:13
a pretty serious penalty because if you
36:17
don't give them a good alternative
36:19
they're liable to take the prosecution's
36:22
alternative right which might be very
36:24
severe so you try to get as close to
36:26
what you think the prosecution is gonna
36:29
demand without you know offering more
36:33
than you have to
36:36
Socrates offers first of all his first
36:40
offer is that they treat him like an
36:45
Olympic hero and give him free dinner
36:47
for the rest of his life
36:48
his friends start so in other words he
36:51
doesn't think he's guilty of anything he
36:52
thinks he should be rewarded right his
36:55
friends start shouting from the audience
36:57
right so then he says okay I don't like
37:00
to spend my friends money but they so he
37:02
offers to front a fine a panel of
37:05
monetary penalty of for like 20 bucks or
37:09
something like that so it's hopeless the
37:14
other side wants death so between death
37:17
and twenty bucks if you think the guy's
37:18
guilty what are you gonna choose most
37:21
what unless it's some really rich banker
37:23
or something and then they take 20 bucks
37:26
so they give him death all right
37:33
that's the apology the cried oh his name
37:37
of his friend who comes to him in jail
37:40
so the setting is in jail right the
37:42
setting here is in front of the
37:43
courthouse
37:48
the setting here is at the trial in the
37:52
courthouse here we're in jail
37:54
credo says I bribe the guard we've got a
38:00
place for you in Thessaly let's go and
38:07
Socrates says let's figure out whether
38:09
that's the right thing to do or not
38:12
so in these 10 pages or so Socrates and
38:18
cryo reached the decision that it's not
38:20
the right thing to do so he stays the
38:24
Phaedo they're waiting for the ship to
38:27
come back from a religious voyage during
38:31
which no lives are allowed to be taken
38:35
and when it gets back his life will be
38:40
taken and while they're waiting they
38:45
have a discussion which is appropriate
38:47
for what it's going to be the last day
38:49
of your life namely what is the nature
38:54
of the human soul and is that kind of
38:58
thing
39:00
mortal does it die or immortal undying
39:05
that's why it's 80 pages it's a long
39:09
discussion with serious intellectual
39:12
issues about the nature of the human
39:15
soul at the end of which he drinks the
39:21
poison and dies that's the Phaedo
39:29
the Meno is actually in terms of
39:34
dramatic setting before the Euthyphro in
39:40
the Meno Socrates Meno asks Socrates a
39:44
question Socrates asked me you know a
39:46
question they struggle with that for a
39:48
while then they deal with something
39:50
related to it and in that last part the
39:53
me knows maybe 50 or 60 pages in that
39:56
last 10 pages or so where the issue is
40:01
whether virtue can be taught or not
40:05
Socrates talks about some of the great
40:09
former leaders of Athens such as
40:14
Themistocles whose idea that they put
40:17
their money into the Navy
40:19
was their salvation against the invasion
40:23
from Persia sosa mystically is regarded
40:28
as a great leader and therefore talking
40:31
about Themistocles and some of the other
40:32
people Pericles who they talk about who
40:36
Socrates refers to is like an American
40:39
talking about say Washington Jefferson
40:41
Lincoln right now we know as Americans
40:46
that particularly in recent history all
40:51
three of those leaders have been
40:53
criticized by people and but there are
41:00
people who don't like that or don't or
41:02
think it's excessive we're wrong what
41:06
there was a person listening that Plato
41:08
presents as listening to this discussion
41:10
between Socrates and Meno named Anytus a
41:16
NYT us you'll see that name when you
41:19
read the apology as one of the accusers
41:21
in the Meno Anytus gets in the
41:26
discussion and tell Socrates that
41:31
if he continues to talk about the great
41:37
leaders of Athens that way he will one
41:40
day pay the price for it
41:43
so we see him in the apology then this
41:47
is all written by Plato you don't want
41:49
to take this necessarily as history and
41:51
this is the way it was period no
41:52
questions asked but this is Plato's view
41:54
in which Plato shows somebody getting
41:59
very annoyed with Socrates here who is
42:03
one of the accusers they're leading to
42:05
Socrates death there okay now what's
42:14
this essay question I have you oh yes
42:17
the essay question has to do is justice
42:19
and how Socrates could say in the
42:24
apology that he would never if they if
42:27
they passed a law that said Socrates
42:29
shut your mouth stop doing this
42:34
questioning of people did you call
42:37
philosophy he would say no ironic he'll
42:42
be killing no and in the Credo he
42:47
refuses to leave jail because he says to
42:50
cried oh you should never break a law so
42:56
the essay question is how do you put
42:57
those two together put them together
43:01
yeah well we will have discussed so in
43:04
other words the first point I'm making
43:06
is I'm not trying to discuss that essay
43:08
question you know I'm trying to indicate
43:09
that neither this nor this nor this is
43:12
directly involved in the essay questions
43:14
indirectly involved in sort of giving us
43:16
a general context of Socrates and so on
43:18
yes
43:21
yeah it's all in one book but that
43:26
question gives me the opportunity to say
43:28
something else you don't have to use
43:32
these additions these additions were
43:34
chosen by me because they're good
43:36
additions and they're cheap these three
43:39
books we used to have them in the
43:41
bookstore everyone like a little over
43:45
$30 altogether used copies of course
43:50
were less but some students like to get
43:55
their stuff from the internet maybe even
43:57
get it free I any way you get it is okay
44:02
with me
44:02
however I want to make sure you should
44:06
make sure that what you're getting is
44:07
what you you know what's a sign what you
44:09
need so if you get some other addition
44:11
you might want to show it to me make
44:13
sure that you're getting what you need
44:17
these and you're welcome to look at this
44:21
take a take down the ISBN number take a
44:24
picture of the ISBN number or whatever
44:26
you can do it now if you want to or
44:28
later
44:30
let's just let's keep it simple and just
44:32
do the first one for now okay so before
44:46
we talk more about play-doh let's talk
44:49
about let's follow the sequence of ideas
44:53
about the nature of this class you do
44:59
some reading you write a log the log is
45:04
usually don't not always as I've just
45:06
explained related to the essay topic
45:09
even now even in this case it's didn't
45:12
directly but later but not directly the
45:18
course is writing intensive there's I
45:22
have a paragraph in the syllabus in
45:24
which I try to explain to you what
45:25
writing intensive means
45:28
I'll do it briefly now you're required
45:31
before you graduate to have three
45:33
writing intensive courses - in your gen
45:37
ed courses like this one one in your
45:39
major the one in the major you usually
45:41
don't have to worry about because it's
45:42
some required course maybe a capstone
45:45
course like a Senior Seminar or
45:46
something like that but most majors have
45:49
that built in so you don't have to worry
45:51
about it what does it mean for a course
45:54
to be writing intensive some courses are
45:56
writing intensive by permanently so it's
46:01
part of the course description it was
46:03
approved by the curriculum committee and
46:04
so on some courses get approved by the
46:09
writing across the curriculum whack w AC
46:12
committee semester by semester because
46:17
they don't necessarily want all of the
46:22
sections of the course to be writing
46:25
intensive as is the case with this
46:27
course now whenever I teach this course
46:29
it's writing intensive but we have
46:31
several sections that are not the reason
46:35
that there are only 25 of you registered
46:37
for this course is that's the limit for
46:40
a writing intensive course we sometimes
46:41
allow one or two more but that's all and
46:45
the reason for that is that there is
46:46
more writing and therefore not only more
46:48
demand on you for writing but more
46:49
demand on the instructor for reading it
46:52
however writing intensive does not
46:56
primarily mean the quantity of writing
46:59
what's supposed to be intensive about it
47:02
is that it involves instruction about
47:08
writing now instruction about writing
47:12
doesn't have to be composition in a
47:14
narrow sense grammatical sentence
47:17
construction and so on although that you
47:20
know part of it it can also be about how
47:24
to put your ideas together so that what
47:26
you write is clear and coherent so I use
47:30
those two terms clear and coherent to
47:32
effect to refer to
47:35
two different things when we ride though
47:37
the first is meaning and the other is
47:40
reasoning when you write a sentence you
47:45
want it to be clear what you mean but
47:47
coherence or has to do with the
47:50
relationship between sentences so you're
47:52
trying you're putting these sentences
47:54
together in order to move in some
47:55
direction and get to some point so are
47:58
they well connected so as to lead to
48:00
that point is a question of coherence
48:04
there will be writing instruction in the
48:08
sense that when you try to write
48:09
meaningful coherent things about these
48:12
books I will respond with questions and
48:15
suggestions and so on to improve the
48:19
clarity and coherence of what you're
48:21
right and it will it's intensive in two
48:26
ways that the writing intensive program
48:29
is about one is that it's part of the
48:33
instruction that's what we talked about
48:37
the other is that you actually that you
48:48
have to rewrite the first essay it
48:52
wouldn't be a bad idea to do it for all
48:53
three but it takes too much time so it's
48:58
only the first one where there will be a
48:59
draft and a revision what will happen is
49:03
the first essay is due September 27 so
49:06
you've got you know you'll have time
49:07
from the time you read this stuff to the
49:09
time it's due but when I get it back
49:13
when I get it from you I have to get it
49:15
back to you in a week
49:17
so that you can then revise it and get
49:20
it back to me in another week all right
49:23
so that's where the time gets short yes
49:29
I'm sorry I want you to use your York
49:38
email address and therefore I want to
49:40
know what it is if it's if it's sticks
49:42
to the formula you don't have to write
49:44
anything there now even though the
49:57
second and third authors we don't have
50:00
time for a draft and revision of the
50:03
essay there is a sense in which it's
50:05
draft and revision because the same
50:09
questions
50:10
all three essay questions will reappear
50:13
on the final exam same question the
50:16
final exam will actually have six
50:18
questions in other words there'll be a
50:23
second question on each author so the
50:27
final exam if the first if the essay on
50:30
Plato is about the apology and cried oh
50:34
that's what that's one final exam
50:36
question the second one will be on the
50:38
Meno for mill I can't remember for sure
50:46
but there will be an additional
50:50
consideration of the material after the
50:55
topic of the essay and the same thing
50:58
for Dewey yes yes now six essay
51:08
everybody always wants to know how long
51:09
six essay questions in 110 minutes means
51:12
about 18 minutes per essay question and
51:18
you won't be able to write as much as
51:21
you could if you had two weeks obviously
51:23
18 minutes is not equal to two weeks
51:25
even if you screw around for part of
51:28
that two weeks right however by this
51:31
time you're supposed to have increased
51:34
your understanding and when you
51:36
understand something you can get more
51:38
ideas into 18 minutes then you
51:41
understood less right so even if you
51:45
right I know none of these answers
51:48
satisfy students I've had enough
51:49
experience to know that but if you write
51:54
a page and and this the whole exam will
51:58
be handed to you first of all you'll get
52:00
the exam by email in advance you'll know
52:03
all the questions but in the final
52:07
itself I'll hand I'll pass out sheets
52:11
you know with question at the top and
52:13
last time I think was something like 19
52:16
lines if you fill those 19 lines that's
52:19
a pretty full answer at least full in
52:22
terms of length all right however there
52:29
are people who write pages and pages
52:31
about stuff and don't say anything and
52:33
then there are people who write two or
52:35
three sentences that showed a grasp of
52:38
some of the main ideas now if it's only
52:41
two or three sentences you probably
52:42
don't won't get an A that way because
52:44
I'll be saying well this is such a good
52:46
idea why didn't you go with it a little
52:48
bit you know but length is not that
52:57
important okay so that's that's an
53:02
introduction to the course what you can
53:04
be doing here it's it's it's always in
53:09
this course an attempt to understand the
53:12
authors you may have different views
53:14
than the author's not very
53:17
well-developed or even stuff that you
53:19
have thought about considerably but
53:21
that's not what the course is about of
53:23
course it's about understanding what
53:24
these authors are talking about and how
53:26
they support their ideas and that's what
53:29
you have to show understanding of
53:38
so if there are no further questions
53:40
about the course I can continue to talk
53:43
about the use of room but I'll pause the
53:46
minute you have question did I tell you
53:59
about making up for your absences if
54:02
you're absent no I only talked about the
54:04
fact that I'm not going to be here
54:06
Wednesday right let's suppose that you
54:09
can't be here sometime and it's not
54:11
because you just decided to goof off or
54:13
whatever but you have a good reason
54:17
could read examples of good reasons we
54:21
all know these things but I'll give you
54:22
some examples anyway might be for
54:25
example that you're sick or that your
54:29
babysitter was sick or that your boss
54:33
changed your work schedule so if you
54:38
give me what I accept as a valid reason
54:40
for missing class this is all in the
54:43
syllabus to go by the way and you make
54:46
up for the class then the absence
54:49
becomes excused in your marked prison
54:52
how do you make up for the class that's
54:56
where the podcast comes in again you
55:00
listen to the podcast recording of the
55:02
class you missed and you write an extra
55:06
log of ten sentences it's ten stead of
55:08
seven on those again what the ten
55:14
sentences are supposed to show is that
55:16
you have some understanding of the
55:20
topics that were discussed in that class
55:25
okay
55:33
so often we're taught to write essays by
55:52
right starting with a first top first
55:56
paragraph that gives the topic of the
55:58
essay and that states a thesis that's
56:04
not a bad way to start but a useful way
56:09
particularly in a discipline like
56:12
philosophy is to start by presenting a
56:16
problem now the problem is your topic so
56:19
that in some ways is just another word
56:21
for the same thing but not necessarily a
56:25
thesis on the problem and if you look at
56:30
Plato's dialogues you can see examples
56:33
of that first of all it's important to
56:40
recognize that they are dialogues Plato
56:46
does not present his ideas as a narrator
56:51
telling you what he thinks he presents
56:56
other people talking to each other
56:59
presenting what they think or say to
57:02
each other they are historical
57:06
characters but we sometimes know little
57:12
or nothing about them
57:13
but other times we know more about them
57:15
one of the main the main character but
57:19
not present in all of Plato's dialogues
57:21
is Socrates we know a lot about Socrates
57:26
because in Plato's dialogues but we also
57:29
have other sources Xenophon wrote some
57:32
dialogues in which Socrates looks very
57:34
different and the
57:38
writer of comedies Aristophanes has a
57:42
play in which Socrates is presented also
57:45
in them in a humorous but also very
57:47
different light in this respect Socrates
57:56
is unusual but not unique in fact he's
58:02
rather like some other founders of
58:05
tradition that are familiar to us
58:08
sillier to us because other people have
58:11
written about them in general don't
58:17
think we know too much from the distant
58:20
past that is has been perpetuated solely
58:24
by an oral tradition so we know about
58:32
Buddha for example not because Buddha
58:34
wrote anything or because what Buddhist
58:36
Buddha said and that was repeated so
58:38
much is because eventually Buddhism
58:41
comes to involve thousands of pages of
58:44
Scripture none of it written by Buddha
58:46
we know about Confucius not because
58:49
Confucius wrote anything but because
58:53
people who listened to him in the
58:55
following generations wrote about what
58:58
he said Jesus didn't write anything but
59:04
others wrote about his life and Socrates
59:07
is similar to these as in the sense of
59:10
being a founder in the Western tradition
59:13
of universities of what we call the
59:16
Academy it's not an accident that one of
59:23
Plato's the one of Socrates followers
59:27
students Plato when he founded a school
59:32
when he started a school it was in a
59:34
park in Athens called the Academy and
59:39
our word academic comes from the fact
59:43
but that was the name of Plato's school
59:48
Socrates was a founder in the sense that
59:51
his life and his spoken words inspired
59:54
others to write write about him and
59:58
write about the things that he was
59:59
concerned with so you are reading a
60:03
dialogue in which Plato presents his
60:06
ideas through his characters some
60:12
writers of dialogues present a true view
60:16
and a false view that's not really
60:19
Plato's approach although you can see
60:22
some of that people that Socrates
60:24
criticizes and so on but it's too simple
60:28
to take Plato's view as simply being
60:31
that of Socrates in any case in order to
60:37
understand Plato's dialogues you have to
60:41
consider not only what's said but who
60:44
said them as Aristotle says in his
60:46
politics that is not his politics his
60:48
poetics Aristotle being one of Plato's
60:52
students when you when you consider a
60:58
work of poetry and he talks are almost
61:01
exclusively of a drama and of tragedy
61:05
you have to consider the plot which we
61:08
think of as the story you know the
61:11
action the character now a character is
61:19
not just the fact that somebody has a
61:22
name in the play if the play is going to
61:27
be successful the character has to have
61:30
character as you have to recognize that
61:34
it's a certain kind of a person if it's
61:37
a comedy it has to be a person whom you
61:39
don't take too seriously because if it's
61:42
too serious its not kamek right
61:47
and the character when he talks
61:52
expresses thought so you have to
61:54
consider how he thinks and what he
61:55
thinks you also have to consider the
61:57
words in the way the ways that he
61:59
expresses those thoughts when you read
62:03
literature in which there are characters
62:06
it's not enough just to look for the
62:09
ideas of the author you have to look at
62:12
the characters and how they're made to
62:16
express ideas and do things and that's
62:22
true in Plato's dialogues understanding
62:28
what's going on is it matter not only of
62:31
a person's ideas but of who the person
62:32
is in fact Plato thinks that learning
62:39
depends on character doesn't just depend
62:43
on intelligence intelligence is not
62:46
separate from who we are and what we
62:48
love what we value and therefore to
62:55
learn is more than just to add thoughts
62:59
to our intelligence it is to change who
63:05
we are to some extent in some way to
63:08
improve who we are so famous place in
63:12
which he discusses that is the allegory
63:15
of the cave for many years when I taught
63:18
this course I didn't use the dialogues
63:20
that we're talking about here today
63:21
I used Plato's Republic it's not the
63:25
standard way of introduction these are
63:29
much more standard the apology the cry
63:31
to use for apology cry oh they're their
63:32
standard ways of introducing people to
63:35
the fact that their standard doesn't
63:36
mean that they're bad they're they're
63:40
quite extraordinary and there's a reason
63:42
why so many people use them as an
63:44
introduction to philosophy and the last
63:48
couple of years that's what I've done
63:49
too but for a long time
63:52
I had students read the Republican
63:54
Republic unlike these shorter pieces is
63:57
about 300 pages and it breaks down into
64:01
ten books that he calls some books we
64:03
would call them chapters but they're
64:05
about 30 pages each and tore at the very
64:13
beginning of the seventh book that is
64:15
rather late there is something called
64:17
the allegory of the cave which is one of
64:21
the two or three best known things a lot
64:23
of people know about the allegory of the
64:25
cave who have not read Plato because
64:30
it's so widely talked about and the my
64:35
mind is getting a little tired so what
64:37
was the what was the film about the guy
64:40
who had a chip and in fact there were
64:42
two or three films got a chip in his
64:44
brain and everything he was experiencing
64:46
was really just happening in his brain
64:48
in his mind not in what no no I mean
64:53
that may be too but I don't know that
64:57
well the point I was gonna make is if I
65:00
think of I think of the title or if you
65:01
do will mention it but that I had
65:05
students at the time telling me it's the
65:07
allegory of the cave professor because
65:11
in the allegory of the cave what Plato
65:13
presents is people who are whose
65:17
experience is so limited that that they
65:21
they don't know about the world they're
65:27
in a cave where the light is given by a
65:33
fire behind them they're all in Chains
65:36
so that they can't even turn their necks
65:39
and what they see the only thing they
65:41
see is shadows on the wall that are cast
65:45
the shadows are cast by that light but
65:47
also by the fact that a kind of puppet
65:49
show is being conducted in front of the
65:52
light so that what the shadows they see
65:54
cast on the wall are shadows of
65:57
artificial that is man-made things
65:59
puppets right
66:02
and that those shadows of artificial
66:05
things cast by an artificial you know
66:07
man-made light a fire that's all they
66:11
know they don't need they don't know
66:13
their own bodies or anything in that
66:21
allegory somebody somehow no explanation
66:27
is given has his chains broken and then
66:35
undergoes the difficult painful process
66:38
of turning his head you know how it is
66:41
when you're in one position for an hour
66:42
or two well if you've been in that
66:44
position all your life makes taking that
66:47
literally the allegory makes no sense
66:49
because your muscles would have
66:50
atrophied and you would have died and so
66:52
on but whatever but you can imagine a
66:54
person in that position for a long time
66:56
how painful it would be to turn his head
66:59
but this is a central idea to the
67:02
allegory of the cave because the
67:03
allegory of the cave is about turning
67:05
around which is a metaphor that we use
67:08
all the time right when a team is behind
67:13
in a ball game and then they score some
67:15
runs and when we say they turn the game
67:18
around right and when a person has been
67:22
a drug addict or something and then he
67:24
becomes something wonderful beneficial
67:26
to everybody around him we say he turned
67:28
his life around so this that in fact we
67:37
also use we may not recognize that it's
67:38
the same word when we talk about
67:41
religion but also some other matters we
67:44
use the word conversion and literally
67:46
what a conversion is is a turning around
67:48
and facing in the other direction the
67:53
the verse route has to do with motion
67:56
and the con means motion in another
67:58
direction turning around so what yeah
68:04
it's a it's a an allegory a story that
68:08
Plato tells that he has Socrates tell
68:11
actually in the seventh book of the
68:13
Republic so when I get to the point
68:19
though about education when this guy
68:21
turns around painfully what he sees in
68:25
the other direction is is the light a
68:29
little bit of light from the entrance to
68:31
the cave so then he walks up and out of
68:37
the cave into the light and just as he
68:39
experienced pain in turning his head
68:40
when he gets to light he experiences
68:45
he's bedazzled right all of this odd as
68:50
it may sound in some ways is actually a
68:52
familiar experience to those of us who
68:54
if we still go to the movies in the
68:56
afternoon right you go into a dark movie
69:00
theater you have to be careful that you
69:02
don't sit in somebody's lap wherever you
69:04
find a seat if and then when you leave
69:10
and you go outside if it's a bright
69:12
sunlight okay so it's like that and what
69:14
you're seeing in the movies is a shadows
69:18
flickering on the screen more or less
69:20
technologically much more advanced than
69:22
what Plato imagined but still similar so
69:28
then he gets outside and he sees things
69:33
and he sees them in a particular
69:35
progression which is not important for
69:38
you to know but in any case he then
69:41
comes back into the cage at a cave it's
69:44
also a cage and he tries to tell others
69:50
what he's seen now you can imagine how
69:53
they would not know what the hell he's
69:54
talking about sound like gibberish right
69:57
because all they've seen are these
69:59
shadows and he wants to release them
70:02
from their chains
70:07
and they don't want to do it so it's
70:11
kind of sad story right and and Plato
70:16
introduces this allegory by saying it is
70:18
a story about mis-education in other
70:24
words the allegories about education and
70:27
if you think about education as
70:32
involving a conversion where instead of
70:35
facing these shadows of artificial
70:39
things man-made things you're facing and
70:43
seeing the real things illuminated by
70:47
natural sunlight you can see that that
70:51
it's it's all about what your values are
70:54
and what kind of person you are
70:55
that's Plato's view I'm not saying it's
70:58
the truth it's a powerful view that's
71:01
Plato's view and that view is presented
71:05
in every one of these dialogues where
71:09
Socrates is presented as a teacher even
71:13
though he denies that he's a teacher and
71:16
one of the ways you can tell that he's a
71:18
teacher is that although Socrates often
71:20
tries to show that somebody else is
71:21
wrong I think it is clear even to those
71:28
of us who read it for the first time
71:30
without much understanding of Socrates
71:32
he's not so much interested in winning
71:36
as he is in better understanding not
71:40
only for himself but for the people he's
71:42
talking with so we don't see Socrates
71:45
getting angry and attacking people and
71:48
so on now let me come back to the use of
71:51
Rome how does the use of frou start used
71:56
to frou expresses surprise at seeing
71:57
Socrates why are you here
72:01
where's here well right outside of the
72:04
courthouse being there means you had
72:09
some legal business Euthyphro surprised
72:15
at seeing Socrates there means that he
72:19
Socrates is not a guy who spends his
72:22
time suing people it comes as a total
72:28
shock to use a fro that somebody has
72:31
actually sued Socrates that he didn't
72:35
even die and even occurred to him
72:37
Socrates who we if you never met him
72:42
before you soon find out by his
72:44
discussion with Euthyphro he's certainly
72:46
willing to question people it's not that
72:49
he doesn't take people to court because
72:51
he doesn't question their behavior or
72:52
their ideas but he doesn't do it in
72:54
court he does it in conversation so we
72:58
get a little bit of an introduction to
72:59
Socrates by Euthyphro surprised to see
73:03
him there Socrates is also puzzled not
73:08
to find Euthyphro in court doesn't say
73:11
anything about that one way or the other
73:12
or just having come from court but when
73:16
he learns what his business is because
73:21
Euthyphro says that he is there to
73:24
prosecute his father now that would be a
73:28
shock to any of us usually even when our
73:34
fathers or our mothers you know people
73:36
very close to us have done wrong we are
73:40
not the ones who press charges against
73:43
them we the children not that it never
73:46
happens but usually not and it's because
73:55
they are loved ones and ones that we
73:58
honor and respect or at least we feel we
74:02
ought to and so Socrates surprised at
74:07
user fro doing this
74:08
it's part of the introduction to the
74:11
topic of piety and impiety whatever the
74:17
word piety means it certainly involves
74:20
respect for and obedience to authorities
74:25
particularly if we regard God as the
74:31
highest authority but also applying to
74:35
political and familial authorities so
74:41
Socrates is a little shocked at this
74:44
what seems to be a lack of piety that is
74:47
a lack of respect response he's he's
74:50
prosecuting him it's a pressing charges
74:52
the custody Euthyphro explains what his
74:56
father is done a servant of his father
75:04
had murdered someone this is presented
75:08
as a fact
75:09
so there's seem to be any doubt about
75:12
that the murderer is given to the father
75:16
the father ties him up and throws him in
75:20
a ditch or something and overnight he
75:25
dies so it doesn't seem to have been the
75:28
father his purpose to kill him but we we
75:30
would probably think of this as kind of
75:33
an unintentional manslaughter they don't
75:35
think of the father is guiltless but
75:37
it's a little complicated by the fact
75:40
that the man's a murderer so that's
75:44
that's the charge and when Socrates asks
75:47
if this is a pious thing to do use the
75:52
fro says yes it is and Socrates says you
75:55
must know what piety is because if you
75:58
are any in any doubt about what piety is
76:01
you certainly wouldn't be doing this to
76:03
your father you'd want to be sure you
76:05
know what you're doing so Socrates takes
76:08
it for granted based on what Euthyphro
76:11
is doing good use it for knows what
76:13
piety is and here's what he wants from
76:16
Euthyphro he's not asking Yusuf Rowe
76:21
primarily to justify what he's doing
76:24
with his father he's asking for help
76:26
with his own case he says if you can
76:31
teach me what piety is I can then go to
76:35
my trial and tell them that I may have
76:39
done impious things in the past but I
76:42
did so unintentionally not really
76:45
understanding what piety is now I have
76:49
learned from Youssef ro what piety is
76:51
and I will never act impiously again
76:55
just not a bad defense and Youssef Rose
77:02
says that won't be a problem I know what
77:07
it is and so Socrates asked him what it
77:11
is
77:12
and Yusuf row gives him some examples
77:17
from what we might call scriptures
77:23
they're not what we refer to as
77:25
scriptures holy scriptures but they are
77:28
if the word scriptures means writings
77:31
with the implication that also that
77:33
they're about the gods in the case of
77:35
the ancient Greeks it would have been
77:38
multiple gods polytheistic and these
77:42
writings are by people like Homer and
77:45
Hesiod traditional poets who wrote about
77:48
the gods and men one example of a story
77:55
about the gods is the story of how soos
77:58
punished his father Cronos Chronos had
78:04
eaten some of his own children so one of
78:09
the things when you read about the
78:13
angels of gods and ancient Greeks is you
78:16
realize that the gods to everything good
78:20
and bad
78:21
we think I was good and bad that human
78:24
beings ever do including some pretty
78:26
extreme stuff like killing your own
78:29
children right and Zeus punished his
78:33
father Cronos and took took over took
78:36
charge by cutting off his testicles okay
78:42
so that's one of the stories that use of
78:45
Rotel Socrates refers to now of course
78:48
Socrates knows these stories too this is
78:53
something to keep in mind when we find
78:56
Socrates in the apology saying that he's
79:01
not a teacher and that the only thing
79:04
that he knows is that he knows nothing
79:07
now I don't want to go into that now but
79:10
I do want to make the observation that
79:13
that sounds pretty extreme if somebody
79:17
were to say to us I know very little
79:19
even if we regarded this person is a
79:21
very knowledgeable person we might
79:23
understand what the person is saying
79:25
because there is so much to know that it
79:28
is a sign of good sense a tapper even a
79:31
person who seems to know a lot
79:32
recognizes how much he doesn't know that
79:35
would all make sense to us but this
79:37
formulation seems pretty extreme I know
79:40
nothing and in thinking about that in
79:44
trying to figure out what Plato and
79:45
Socrates mean we should keep in mind
79:48
something we've just encountered here
79:50
which is that Euthyphro thinks himself
79:53
an expert because he knows all these
79:55
stories and he's got him at his
79:56
fingertips right but Socrates knows the
80:01
stories too whether he knows them as
80:04
well as you thought we can't tell but he
80:06
knows the stories so the idea that he
80:10
knows nothing doesn't seem quite to fit
80:13
with that
80:17
he also says we should keep this in mind
80:21
when we think about the charge of
80:22
impiety against him that he doesn't
80:25
believe those stories
80:27
tells you throw that not at the
80:31
beginning in the course of the dialogue
80:35
now but that's not the problem with you
80:39
as afros attempt to tell Socrates what
80:41
piety is the problem is that he's given
80:44
he's referred to two or three stories
80:46
like that where sons punish their
80:51
fathers in effect what users always
80:54
saying is of course it's okay for me to
80:57
do this my father Zeus did it with
80:58
Chronos right
81:01
but to know whether it's okay or not you
81:06
have to understand why Zeus did it and
81:09
what made it right or good and is that
81:13
the same situation you're in use of Rome
81:17
in other words you can't just point to
81:19
examples you have to have some ideas
81:22
about what those examples mean I have
81:27
found as a teacher that frequently
81:29
students will talk about examples where
81:31
they haven't given any concept at the
81:32
example is not the students tend to
81:34
exaggerate examples as means of learning
81:37
which is very similar to the problem
81:38
they use the four hands here so I
81:42
sometimes like to talk about examples
81:45
like this I'll give you an example and
81:50
here's my example cat CAT cat that's my
81:58
example you understand me do you really
82:02
know Santana yes well I don't have a cat
82:06
but I do understand what a cat is right
82:08
but do you understand what example I'm
82:10
giving you no because all I've given you
82:13
is one word I haven't said what yes you
82:16
know what a cat is but you don't know
82:17
what I'm saying about cats do you now I
82:19
could cat could be an example for
82:21
example of a three-letter word right or
82:26
it could be an example of an animal or
82:29
it could be an example of a companion
82:32
certain kind of companions that you
82:35
can't expect to be too affectionate
82:36
right yeah you don't know what the
82:43
example is an example of unless you have
82:45
some ideas that go with it
82:49
so examples by themselves are not enough
82:52
they're not even examples okay what
82:57
Euthyphro has done is to give a couple
83:01
of examples of what he calls piety but
83:04
he has given us no indication of why he
83:07
calls those examples of piety well he's
83:22
not you ya found guilty and put to death
83:27
yeah I think that that would be giving
83:30
too much importance to use the phone I
83:33
don't think there was ever a chance that
83:35
Euthyphro was gonna give Socrates
83:37
anything that would get him off but what
83:40
what Socrates is Plato is trying to show
83:45
us a couple of things one there's a
83:48
certain irony here that is Socrates it's
83:52
talking as if Euthyphro is the one who
83:56
has knowledge of piety and it's because
83:58
Euthyphro is saying that he does and
84:00
he's saying it in words but he's also
84:03
saying it by his behavior when you act
84:06
in a way that's so consequential for for
84:09
somebody to whom presumably you are
84:10
respected loved you better know what
84:13
you're doing right if your actions are
84:16
not consequential they don't affect
84:18
other people much then you can be
84:20
careless in if you want to right but not
84:23
something that's so consequential right
84:25
all right we don't mind people shooting
84:27
off at the mouse if they're just having
84:29
fun
84:30
but if you're President of the United
84:32
States you know it can really hurt
84:34
people so
84:40
so when new to throw can't so first of
84:46
all he's he's teaching you to throw
84:49
something Teddy should know what he's
84:52
talking about here but he's not accusing
84:55
him of not knowing what he's talking
84:57
about
84:57
he's assuming that if he's doing some of
85:00
these a good guy he's doing something so
85:02
consequently must know what he's talking
85:03
about if that is true then he knows
85:07
something that is useful to Socrates but
85:11
if it's not true if he doesn't know what
85:14
he's talking about or doesn't know
85:17
enough then that is useful to Euthyphro
85:22
if you don't know what you're doing it's
85:26
useful for you to know that you don't
85:28
know what you're doing so that the stuff
85:30
that you're eating or smoking or
85:32
whatever right so that you can learn
85:35
what it does to you or for you right and
85:39
you can help yourself by whatever you
85:45
choose to do so he's gonna wind up
85:49
helping Euthyphro more than you throw
85:51
helps him although Euthyphro leaves the
85:56
discussion because he's busy he's got
85:59
things to do
86:00
when you and I know that he's far from
86:03
understanding what he needs to
86:05
understand and it would be okay to leave
86:10
and maybe come back another time and he
86:12
says we'll have to discuss this another
86:13
time but we also know if we know about
86:17
these things
86:18
these dialogues as I've just told you
86:20
that saying to socrates we'll talk about
86:26
this another time is a sad joke because
86:30
Socrates is going to be dead
86:32
right so Socrates shows Euthyphro that
86:41
he does not have a definition of piety
86:45
he doesn't even understand what is
86:48
required for a definition he he thinks
86:50
he can give a few examples but he's not
86:54
trying to show him up he says I this
87:01
thing carefully you'll see Socrates
87:03
saying sticking with the idea that
87:04
Euthyphro knows you're not telling me
87:07
what you know you throw he says since
87:10
several times so Euthyphro then tries
87:14
and you might ask yourself why does
87:16
Socrates do that why is he pushing
87:17
Euthyphro who's gonna benefit from that
87:21
what do you think if you surf ro doesn't
87:25
really know what piety is is he gonna
87:30
help Socrates with his trial no but if
87:34
he keeps talking with Socrates what
87:37
might the benefit be yeah or come closer
87:45
and if he does that will be beneficial
87:49
to Socrates too if they together get
87:52
some understanding of piety there will
87:54
be beneficial but the most obvious
87:56
benefactor will be used to vote because
87:59
you suppose the one who's showing he
88:01
hasn't really thought about this stuff
88:03
so Euthyphro in fact makes two more
88:10
attempts to define piety which you're
88:14
gonna hear me talk about in the podcast
88:15
too he first he says okay he gets the
88:21
idea that you need a concept that
88:22
applies to all these examples why is
88:25
this a cat and this accountant this cat
88:27
right what do they got in common what is
88:29
it it makes a cat a cat
88:34
and so he comes up with the general idea
88:37
that peyote is what the gods love now
88:42
this idea of what the gods or God loves
88:46
probably does have something to do with
88:48
piety God's commands God's knowledge
88:55
whatever are presumably involved in what
89:01
it means to show proper respect and love
89:05
for God and for other authorities as
89:08
well but there's an obvious problem the
89:14
stories of the gods are stories of them
89:18
fighting with each other there they're
89:20
usually no fighting over human beings
89:23
human beings are fighting and which side
89:26
are the gods on a lot of the wars of
89:29
human beings are depicted in these poems
89:31
as like proxy wars that the gods in
89:34
scouts are in effect fighting each other
89:36
through human beings so the the gods
89:39
disagree so so you cannot simply speak
89:43
of what the gods love since this God
89:46
loves this and that God loves that now
89:49
this is an obvious problem with
89:52
polytheism you know you have a lot of
89:55
gods with different views different
89:56
ambitions trying to replace each other
89:58
like Zeus trying to take over from his
90:00
father Cronos but it also applies to
90:02
monotheism because although there's the
90:06
ideas of one God you have that one God
90:09
in scriptures depicted as saying this to
90:13
this person and that to that person and
90:15
so on and that doesn't mean that and
90:18
it's not always obvious how those relate
90:21
to each other whether they're consistent
90:22
with each other right that doesn't mean
90:25
the God is lying or that the God is
90:26
deceptive whether the God is wrong or
90:28
something like that but it does give you
90:31
a human beings something to puzzle over
90:33
to put together as we have done for
90:37
thousands of years
90:43
in the last definition Socrates raises a
90:48
further question even if we could get
90:52
the gods all to agree or if we defined
90:55
piety in terms of whatever agreement
90:59
they might have and we say wherever the
91:01
gods always agree that's that's piety
91:04
which is an idea that Euthyphro comes to
91:08
even if we got to that as the definition
91:11
we would still not be giving a
91:13
definition of piety because we wouldn't
91:16
be answering the question why do they
91:17
love it is something pious or we could
91:23
substitute the word good because the
91:25
gods love it or do they love it because
91:27
it's good and Socrates argues that love
91:33
you love something because of som
91:35
something about it that makes it good
91:38
it's so it's not enough to define piety
91:41
to show that people or gods love it what
91:47
is it they love that's the point at
91:50
which you so fro feels he's gone as far
91:53
as he can go
91:55
and he's got other business and he
91:57
leaves so I'm gonna go over some of this
92:03
again in the in the podcast raise a few
92:06
questions
92:06
and you will of course read it there'll
92:10
be a lot of material there that I
92:13
haven't mentioned and give you some food
92:16
for thought you'll read it you'll listen
92:18
to the podcast and you'll write these
92:20
two things and I'll see you in nine days